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Old February 22nd, 2020, 11:08 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Hackish tune appears to pull timing compared to stock

Looking at my tunes in Fastworks and comparing them to the base map it appears that both my 87 and 91 octane tunes have more fueling and less timing than the stock map? Or am I comparing to the base tuned map not the stock map? Just seemed weird
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Old February 23rd, 2020, 09:44 AM   #2 (permalink)
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The base map he gave you may have had knock, so in testing, he may have had to add fuel or pull timing to do it. But what's more important is WHERE it pulls tuning and where it adds it back again.

Michael likes to do very safe maps, and the safest map for an engine that is prone to knocking is to pull timing or add fuel

Note though, that even the base file he gave you isn't the stock file. That's just what he uses as a starting point, and is a sort of "low average" for what people and up with for a tune. That's what you'd get with a reflash service.
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Old February 23rd, 2020, 12:41 PM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sabertooth^2 View Post
The base map he gave you may have had knock, so in testing, he may have had to add fuel or pull timing to do it. But what's more important is WHERE it pulls tuning and where it adds it back again.

Michael likes to do very safe maps, and the safest map for an engine that is prone to knocking is to pull timing or add fuel

Note though, that even the base file he gave you isn't the stock file. That's just what he uses as a starting point, and is a sort of "low average" for what people and up with for a tune. That's what you'd get with a reflash service.
You're totally right, I think the few degrees of timing pulled and more fuel added on my 87 map compared to the base is for safety, I just didn't know if that was comparing it to the base tuned map or the base stock map. I think you're right and it compares it to the base tuned map.
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Old March 12th, 2020, 11:31 AM   #4 (permalink)
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So Hackish has different tunes depending on what type of gas YOU want to use? If im correct, since you both know my set up what would be my gains with each type of gas tune and would I shorten the life of my engine using a higher octane tune?
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Old March 12th, 2020, 03:08 PM   #5 (permalink)
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You'll see gains in power, fuel economy, and engine lifespan. Especially if you got rid of cats and had it tuned properly (OEM, the car has to dump a LOT of fuel to keep the cats hot enough to function, as well as it artificially adds too much timing advance for the same purpose on the GT)

He can do lower octane tunes for the GT, and higher for GS. I've known him to do 87-94 octane tunes for people. I'd imagine E85 race fuel (not pump, because the ethanol content varies by 60%) and other race fuels could be done too. But no point NA, as even 91 to 94 octane is minimal
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Old March 12th, 2020, 04:43 PM   #6 (permalink)
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So Hackish has different tunes depending on what type of gas YOU want to use? If im correct, since you both know my set up what would be my gains with each type of gas tune and would I shorten the life of my engine using a higher octane tune?
Well it started off with me getting his tune and the tune files he sent me said 91oct and I knew the GT took 91 but the GS takes 87 stock for stock and I didn’t want to spend the extra $$ on 93 in my area (87, 89, and 93 in my area) on my daily driver Eclipse, it’s bad enough on my WRX that requires premium and gets bad gas mileage lol so I asked him if he could modify it for 87 oct and he took it and pulled some timing out in some areas mostly by only a degree or two but in one cell by 8 degrees and 5 degrees in a few WOT MIVEC high octane cells so it wouldn’t knock and he could’ve richened the fuel up a little but didn’t and he said it’ll be good

But with his fastworks program you can datalog your car and edit the tunes yourself too

I knew the GS was 87 oct stock and the engine wasn’t high compression or turbo/supercharged to require premium octane and ran 87 stock so I knew it didn’t require premium and he only made high octane tunes to squeeze out more power but it isn’t worth the extra ~$11 for full fill up to me on the eclipse for tiny gains, so u just have to pull some timing in the right cells and maybe add a tad more fuel for cooling to prevent knock and you can still get an 87 oct tune that will get more power and better MPG that’s stock and isn’t pig rich throwing your money out the pipe and polluting way more

Last edited by pcfreak4; March 12th, 2020 at 05:08 PM.
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Old March 13th, 2020, 01:34 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sabertooth^2 View Post
You'll see gains in power, fuel economy, and engine lifespan. Especially if you got rid of cats and had it tuned properly (OEM, the car has to dump a LOT of fuel to keep the cats hot enough to function, as well as it artificially adds too much timing advance for the same purpose on the GT)

He can do lower octane tunes for the GT, and higher for GS. I've known him to do 87-94 octane tunes for people. I'd imagine E85 race fuel (not pump, because the ethanol content varies by 60%) and other race fuels could be done too. But no point NA, as even 91 to 94 octane is minimal
Only reason I havent gotten a tune is cause im not tech savvy. I let Michael know I would contact him when I gather all the stuff I would need for his tune. He didnt follow up much on the 2nd method he had before, sending our ECU for a reflash. That would had been convinient for someone who doesnt know how to run a pc like me.
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Old March 13th, 2020, 01:36 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Well it started off with me getting his tune and the tune files he sent me said 91oct and I knew the GT took 91 but the GS takes 87 stock for stock and I didn’t want to spend the extra $$ on 93 in my area (87, 89, and 93 in my area) on my daily driver Eclipse, it’s bad enough on my WRX that requires premium and gets bad gas mileage lol so I asked him if he could modify it for 87 oct and he took it and pulled some timing out in some areas mostly by only a degree or two but in one cell by 8 degrees and 5 degrees in a few WOT MIVEC high octane cells so it wouldn’t knock and he could’ve richened the fuel up a little but didn’t and he said it’ll be good

But with his fastworks program you can datalog your car and edit the tunes yourself too

I knew the GS was 87 oct stock and the engine wasn’t high compression or turbo/supercharged to require premium octane and ran 87 stock so I knew it didn’t require premium and he only made high octane tunes to squeeze out more power but it isn’t worth the extra ~$11 for full fill up to me on the eclipse for tiny gains, so u just have to pull some timing in the right cells and maybe add a tad more fuel for cooling to prevent knock and you can still get an 87 oct tune that will get more power and better MPG that’s stock and isn’t pig rich throwing your money out the pipe and polluting way more[/QUOTE]
😂🤣 but im sure your WRX is fast, no? Would it be a good idea to get WRX injectors for my GS?
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Old March 13th, 2020, 02:50 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Not NA, no. More fuel doesn't mean more power. You'll just end up having to tune it so it opens the injector for less time, so it runs like stock again.

If you want to go 15psi of boost on the other hand, some Subaru 565cc injectors will get you there (650cc flow at 58psi, which is what our pumps run)
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Old March 13th, 2020, 07:31 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Yeah you can put the old Subaru (well Denso) top feed injectors in out of the 02-07 WRX but than you have to adjust your injector scalar in your tune and there’s no reason you need more fuel flow on a GS even with full bolt ons unless you’re going E85 or boosted
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Old March 13th, 2020, 02:09 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Yeah, stock injectors are good for about 250hp crank. Mind you, the spray pattern would become shitty at that point.
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Old March 13th, 2020, 11:53 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sabertooth^2 View Post
Yeah, stock injectors are good for about 250hp crank. Mind you, the spray pattern would become shitty at that point.
I think I read somewhere here that our GS injectors were the same as the GT injectors. Is that right?
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Old March 13th, 2020, 11:54 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Yeah you can put the old Subaru (well Denso) top feed injectors in out of the 02-07 WRX but than you have to adjust your injector scalar in your tune and there’s no reason you need more fuel flow on a GS even with full bolt ons unless you’re going E85 or boosted
Am I considered full bolt ons or am I missing something?
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Old March 14th, 2020, 02:48 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Full bolt on is a term generally meaning cold air intake, header(s), underdrive pulley (GS only), catback exhaust.

They are the basic bolt on mods, and require a tune to be anywhere near their potential gains.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 08:54 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sabertooth^2 View Post
Full bolt on is a term generally meaning cold air intake, header(s), underdrive pulley (GS only), catback exhaust.

They are the basic bolt on mods, and require a tune to be anywhere near their potential gains.

Got it. So what comes with Michael's reflash? Does it come with launch control?
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Old March 14th, 2020, 11:24 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabertooth^2 View Post
Full bolt on is a term generally meaning cold air intake, header(s), underdrive pulley (GS only), catback exhaust.

They are the basic bolt on mods, and require a tune to be anywhere near their potential gains.

Got it. So what comes with Michael's reflash? Does it come with launch control?
You have a GS right? Auto or manual? What mods?
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Old March 14th, 2020, 01:50 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Got it. So what comes with Michael's reflash? Does it come with launch control?[/QUOTE]

You have a GS right? Auto or manual? What mods?[/QUOTE]

Yeah. GS Manual.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 01:53 PM   #18 (permalink)
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DC Sports CAI.
TB Bypass.
GT Throttle Body.
RRE UDP
Down wind pipe was cut and welded to a 2.5 exhaust retaining original stock Resonator for scavenging.
21" cherry bomb glasspack.
Heat wrapped RRE headers.
Tanabe strut bar.
Slotted and drilled brake disks.
Toyo ZR tires.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 03:22 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Sparda D'Mon View Post
DC Sports CAI.
TB Bypass.
GT Throttle Body.
RRE UDP
Down wind pipe was cut and welded to a 2.5 exhaust retaining original stock Resonator for scavenging.
21" cherry bomb glasspack.
Heat wrapped RRE headers.
Tanabe strut bar.
Slotted and drilled brake disks.
Toyo ZR tires.
You could gain some power with the tune for the intake and exhaust, maybe the throttle body but it’s been said that it doesn’t really help
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Old March 14th, 2020, 06:33 PM   #20 (permalink)
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You could gain some power with the tune for the intake and exhaust, maybe the throttle body but it’s been said that it doesn’t really help[/QUOTE]

Really? GT TB was suppose to yield the highest... man it's all misleading. Lol! Maybe it's just me but it feels like 4th gear was turned into another 3rd gear. It's very responsive.
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Old March 14th, 2020, 08:14 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Responsiveness comes from the tune, and throttle body size. Smaller will give more response and control
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Old March 14th, 2020, 11:21 PM   #22 (permalink)
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It’s all about finding the right balance, bigger isn’t always better
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Old March 15th, 2020, 06:17 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Uh... you guys are telling me I should go back to stock TB if I want the best gain?
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Old March 15th, 2020, 06:18 AM   #24 (permalink)
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What you two think about intake resonator delete? Bought the flange.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 07:46 AM   #25 (permalink)
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What you two think about intake resonator delete? Bought the flange.
I have the block off plate on mine, can’t tell a power difference with it but it does cause more intake noise
I mainly did it on mine to just eliminate anything unnecessary

Last edited by pcfreak4; March 15th, 2020 at 04:22 PM.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 07:57 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I blocked mine to gain space and to add a port for my boost controller, when I had that manifold.

Again, no real difference. It's to remove sounds
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Old March 15th, 2020, 02:50 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Nice. So I was reading on RRE that CAI, RRE headers and exhaust alone yield over 170whp. 172whp on their dyno sheet. RRE UDP yields 6-7whp on a mustang dyno. So can I safely asume im at 177whp?
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Old March 15th, 2020, 02:55 PM   #28 (permalink)
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If so I have this formula to calculate my crank hp. 177+14.2% (power transfer loss for manual.) = 202.134hp. Am I right? I dnt remember how I came up with 14.2% but it was very accurate. Something to do with the original hp and whp.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 03:02 PM   #29 (permalink)
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For auto the loss ppl usually use is 20% dont know the real number. Also I have two methods to calculate a race outcome or car power. Power to weight ratio. 2024,000lbs = 0.050 meaning my car runs one point higher than stock. 1623,300= 0.049 that ratio is just the car. No one in it. So my car runs stock with 4,000lbs.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 03:05 PM   #30 (permalink)
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The second one is to use whp instead of hp. But lately I been seeing that torque plays a very important role. So I'll mess around with some torque numbers to see how accurate it is.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 05:46 PM   #31 (permalink)
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Torque and rpm determine horsepower, which is a more useful number unless you're trying to launch the car as hard as possible. We have transmissions. An engine making 150tq at 3000rpm would put down the same wheel torque as one making 75tq at 6000rpm when comparing equal speeds of the vehicle, as you'd have twice the gear multiplier.

As for losses after the engine, it's not a fixed percent. Eg, at lower RPM, there's less rotational mass, so wheels, flywheel, axles, rotors, hubs, and the transmission have lower loads than higher RPM.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 08:09 PM   #32 (permalink)
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Torque and rpm determine horsepower, which is a more useful number unless you're trying to launch the car as hard as possible. We have transmissions. An engine making 150tq at 3000rpm would put down the same wheel torque as one making 75tq at 6000rpm when comparing equal speeds of the vehicle, as you'd have twice the gear multiplier.

As for losses after the engine, it's not a fixed percent. Eg, at lower RPM, there's less rotational mass, so wheels, flywheel, axles, rotors, hubs, and the transmission have lower loads than higher RPM.
So what would be the right formula just for calculating?
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Old March 15th, 2020, 09:15 PM   #33 (permalink)
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If so I have this formula to calculate my crank hp. 177+14.2% (power transfer loss for manual.) = 202.134hp. Am I right? I dnt remember how I came up with 14.2% but it was very accurate. Something to do with the original hp and whp.
14.2% would probably be a fair guess. Id probably guess closer to only 12% drivetrain loss with a FWD car with a manual gearbox like your Eclipse. RWD eats up more power, and AWD eats up even more. But again, its only a guess. Dyno runs are helpful and drag strip MPH is a great way to see what kind of power youre making.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 10:22 PM   #34 (permalink)
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There is no standard formula. Eg, at 20mph and 3rd gear, you may have a 5% loss. At 100mph, 3rd gear, you may have a 20% loss. At 100mph 5th gear you may have a 10% loss. At 5th gear 150mph, you may have a 30% loss.

(All numbers pulled from my ass). You'll see that numbers on a dyno change based on speed that the pull is done on, even if no other factors change aside from gear chosen, and the ratio is accounted for.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 10:29 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Basically the higher the speed the greater the loss?
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Old March 15th, 2020, 10:37 PM   #36 (permalink)
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I guess my only option is to dyno. I will consider this and attempt it in a month from now. Right now I found a water pump for my car that my local mechs forgot to change when I did the timing belt at 179k. (Read it's wise to do so every 60k miles.) I have no leaks or problems so far but I'll buy one for when that day comes. Is DNJ a good brand?
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Old March 15th, 2020, 11:05 PM   #37 (permalink)
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They sound like some off brand, so it's hard to say. Most run the pump with the Gates kit.

And yes, speed affects the parasitic load, as does tire weight, rim weight, the proportions of them, the RPM of the engine, flywheel weight, drive pulley size and weight, smoothness of the road, tire pressure, tire rolling resistance, suspension setup, alignment... Soooo many factors. Typically we just throw out 15%, and it's what NA most see on the dyno when comparing stock. But, if you're making 1000hp, nothing is going to be moving any faster. So that loss of 15% isn't gonna still be 15%, you're not gonna lose an extra 135hp suddenly. Not unless you measure at a higher speed than you would have at lower power, which then comes down to everything after the transmission spinning faster, and a different gearset being used.
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Old March 15th, 2020, 11:43 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Gates kit... got it. I see what you mean. I mostly stick to 0-60 or 100 max on highway but rarely. Mostly just street lights.
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Old March 16th, 2020, 12:07 AM   #39 (permalink)
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Good brand? I will like to have extra stuff just in case in the future.
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Old March 16th, 2020, 08:32 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Enginetech is an entry level band, but at least I know them. They sell a lot of cheap engine rebuild kits and such for daily driving
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