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Old April 20th, 2016, 03:54 PM   #1 (permalink)
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FastWorks vs Merlin vs Stayer Tune Comparison

So I believe I am in a very unique position where I have used all available tuning solutions for our car except for the AEM. I initially started with Brent/Merlin’s system, moved to FastWorks and have finally settled on Stayers tune. I initially flashed with Brent in June 2014 and continued to tweak it for the next few months. I made the switch to FastWorks in March 2015 and then moved to Stayers tune and the end of March this year. All have their upsides and all have their cons. Hopefully the following will give you an idea of my experiences and shed light onto any questions you may have had.

Merlin Tune Pros/Cons – Price depends on who does the tune. It cost me $250 for the definition and tuning was included in that for me. I also purchased my own MMCFLASH which was another $375 with shipping.

Pros
  • Once you have the definition you can tune it yourself or take it to a tuner.
  • Turnaround time was quick and Brent was easy to access to work out problems.
  • Did not require a wideband.
  • Results were great. Power was great, acceleration was great and MPG increased a lot.

Cons
  • The definition I received from Merlin was incomplete. Looking at the XML notes show there are entire sections that are undefined which resulted in features and ROM settings being uneditable. As a result, I was never able to get the CEL caused by my RRE header to go away because I couldn’t either disable to code or adjust the cat efficiency to prevent the code from triggering. This was not an issue I saw with a friend of mine who got a definition from Merlin and his was more developed and accessed areas that I could not.
  • Requires using two different pieces of software in order to edit the ROM (EcuFlash, free)and then write it back to the ECU (MMCFLASH, paid). MMCFLASH was difficult to get ahold of as it is only sold by certain vendors and stock on hand was also low. Brent had one that you could rent and return after tuning is complete, but that loses some of the benefit of this system which is being completely self sufficient if you so choose to be.
  • No built in data logging unit which requires another purchase of a data logging software.
  • Required you to move pins around within the OBDII port on your car.

FastWorks Tuning Pros/Cons – Purchased during yearly sale for $249

Pros
  • Turnaround time for the initial tune was great.
  • Definition for my ROM was fully developed and had access to settings that Merlin did not.
  • FastWorks is a self contained application that was able to combine all required software from Brent’s tune into one pane of glass.
  • Since the app includes the definition and the ability to edit your ROM, you can either self tune or take your car to a tuner for fine tuning.
  • Any additional mods added after the initial tune were able to be added which kept my ROM up to date.

Cons
  • Requires a wideband in order to fine tune which is an expensive addition on top of the cost of the tune.
  • Using the base tune provided, power and MPG went down compared to Brent’s tune.
  • Support after the initial tune was very hit or miss. I added mods after my initial tune and turn around for that was a matter of a couple days, but I recently I filed a ticket to address a low idle issue I had been experiencing for awhile and did not receive a response for 22 days and the response I received asked questions that I had answered in my ticket submission.
  • The version of FastWorks I used was very buggy under certain uses. Datalogging was a crap shoot as to whether or not it would freeze the app and crash and during my initial flash crashed which required an ECU recovery before attempting to write the new ROM again.
  • The app also requires an internet connection to work as it phones home to his servers to verify licensing during every start up.

Stayer Tune Pros/Cons -$300USD

Pros
  • Power and MPG increased on the same level or higher than Brent’s.
  • Was able to get rid of my header related CEL.
  • Communication with Stayer was easy when you consider the time difference and language barrier between us. There is a 12 hour time difference between us, but he was great at working out times that worked for both of us.
  • He is also working with me to fine tune my idle to get rid of the low idle problem I have had for ages.
  • He can now connect with you remotely so it is not necessary to send your ECU to Russia anymore.

Cons
  • You do not receive the definition for your ROM so you cannot make any changes yourself later on.

This is not so much of a con but more of a heads up. The language barrier can be a problem at times trying to communicate complex ideas back and forth as we are communicating through a translator, but in my experience it has not hindered anything.

All in all, I am very happy with Stayers system and if given the opportunity to do this whole process over again knowing what I do now I would pick Stayer right from the get go. The price point for each tune is pretty even across the board barring the need for an MMCFLASH which could be rented, but the results have me convinced of Stayers system solely for the fact that it is a combination of some of the best parts of FastWorks and Brent’s tune.

This is getting incredibly long winded so I will end this here but please feel free ask questions and I’ll be more than happy to answer them.
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Old April 21st, 2016, 12:38 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Thanks for the report. About the cons of my system I want to say. Earlier we gave the definition to configure. However, over time, came to the decision that it's not right. The tune is very accurately tuned. People often think that much smarter than the developer. Begin to make changes that are very bad for the General state of tune. At the same time suffer the reputation of the original developer.
In the tune of solutions, which at first glance do not seem correct. They are trying to fix. Not knowing the inner essence of the program. The result is predictable - he is bad.
In tune taking into account all possible modifications.
Therefore, there is no need to get into the program.
Just enjoy the control and power.
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Old April 21st, 2016, 07:38 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Thanks for the review Michael! I've always wondered the differences between all 3 of them and this will greatly help members decide!
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Old April 21st, 2016, 09:02 AM   #4 (permalink)
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I think it's a fair review. I'm always working to improve the system so I think a lot of things have improved in the time since you tried the tune on your car. It would be interesting to see a dyno/features comparison between the latest generation of tunes.

a) A wideband is not required, it's recommended but that's for all cars being tuned so it's not specific to fastworks.

b) The software asks for a password if you don't select the remember me option. About 3 years ago it used to connect to the license server every 1-2 weeks. As a result of customer feedback this was removed in favour of a screen asking you to update.

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Old April 21st, 2016, 11:07 AM   #5 (permalink)
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With regards to my work. I don't hide dyno sheet. This is the full stock 4g69. Even the air filter and catalysts. Any modification will add a few HP
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Old April 21st, 2016, 03:16 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Very interesting review and thank you. I think you were the 3rd person to use the system I put together. Your review is pretty good considering when you used it the system was in its infancy. Just before I pulled out of Eclipse tuning the system had evolved where you are no longer required to get the MMCFLASH (tuning is done remotely), you only need a tactrix cable. CEL issues since you used the system have now been solved. Lets be honest Merlin only started working on these definitions for a few months if that. Over all I am pleased with the review.

For ongoing support I will always support my work. All customers have my contact information and as you said I was easy to contact.
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Old April 21st, 2016, 04:39 PM   #7 (permalink)
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@ Stayer - Like I said it's not a huge con, but was brought up to show that it is a difference compared to the other systems. I'm just one of those people who loves to see what was done and possibly take it to a local tuner to adjust for local weather which can have an impact on performance.

@hackish - I have dyno data for my car already and am planning on taking my car back next month to get data on the other two systems. It was just something I had forgotten to do with Brent's system and after I had flashed yours I couldn't get his system to talk to my ECU as it looked like FastWorks modified the bootloader in someway.

@Wolverine - I do think that being one of the first had an impact and as I've already said to you via text that my issues with the system had nothing to do with anything you did or changed but all were attributed back to the incomplete XML from Merlin. It is nice to know that the system matured enough to remove the MMCFLASH as a requirement now though.
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Old April 21st, 2016, 05:57 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Thanks Michael for posting this. I remember we had talked about your tune history and what not. Im sure things are different from when you did the tunes. Its just nice to actually have a solid review.
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Old April 21st, 2016, 08:44 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Before I forget the last few Eclipse GT AT XML i got from Merlin had he trans in the XML I will provide a screen shot soon.

Also as mentioned all you need now is a Tactrix cable, nothing more to rent. I only did that to help keep costs down.
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Old April 21st, 2016, 09:07 PM   #10 (permalink)
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The competition is very useful. This forces engineers to not stand still. Or to reduce the price.
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Old April 22nd, 2016, 02:01 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Screen shot of the AT XML.

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Old April 22nd, 2016, 12:03 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Great write up. I'm looking forward to seeing a dyno sheet with all the different tunes on it. No matter what, I was very pleased with Brent's tune. I had no problems showing you, what a nasty sprayed eclipse looks like. Round 2 will be even more exciting.
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Old February 1st, 2017, 11:18 PM   #13 (permalink)
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This is a very useful thread indeed, i am one of those people who certainly believes in competition, all the names above have done great effort "each one based on his perspective" to enhance the performance of this Eclipse.

Very decent professional conversation, perfect details.

I have some questions, if you don`t mind.

1- What were the modifications you had in your car since the beginning.
2- did you add any other modifications between each and every other tune
3- When you tuned with Fast work, you said you dyno tested your car, would you please share the results with us in addition to the mods you had during this dyno


This should go sticky somehow!

Regards
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Old March 28th, 2017, 10:15 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I've been doing a bunch of reading on tuning throughout the forum as I am very new to this. I'm running an 07 spyder gt (6g75) AT. I've installed an aftermarket autostart system that I love and it's wired into the OBD2 wires under the dash. I've cut gutted/cut off all my Cats, spaced my o2 sensors, installed a good cai down low with a heat shield and bypass filter, done a complete maintenance including NGK IR laser plugs, I'm dropping it a few inches next week. have 140,000 but the car runs absolutely perfect and there's not a speck of dust or a drop of oil anywhere in the engine bay, car is cleaner than factory. The tuning sounds a bit complicated to me. Long story short, Can I just pull my ECU out and send it to someone and pay them to program it and then pop it back in? I probably wont do any further mods to the powertrain. I just want to throw a bit of cash at some easy horsepower and not have to deal with the computer side of things. Anyone have any good advice? Am I ready for a tune or should I make another step first?
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Old March 28th, 2017, 10:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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You could send it out or just get a cable and do it yourself in your own driveway. The fastworks yearly sale will be starting this year in May. I can't make promises until the hardware support is done, but I've been working hard on producing other options for flashing hardware.

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Old March 28th, 2017, 11:33 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Im praying for April to fly by fast so we can all buy Michaels tune!!!
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Old March 28th, 2017, 12:13 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I hope this year to improve upon the speed of delivering the initial tuned basemap. In addition to all the new features, I'm working hard to get automation working so the server can generate your tune so I don't have to do 50 of them manually this year!

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Old April 4th, 2017, 10:42 AM   #18 (permalink)
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I've personally delt with Michael (Hackish) and have absolutely nothing but good things to say about him. He's honest, good natured and can take a joke pretty well. If you do decide to pay him a visit for tuning, know that a wideband is not required as he has his own portable sensor that he can hook up and read from (shoot your O² with PB blaster or something before hand to save him some work). Once everything is hooked up, he'll have you drive around and look at the data, occasionally stopping to reflash an update or to make a change. The man is patient and never makes you feel rushed. He'll take his time to make sure the tune is dialed in and running perfectly, so be sure you've got a fair share of gas in the tank and food in your belly.

What he did for me was raise the governor to 510 km/h, set the rev limiter to 7200, sharpen the throttle a fair deal and hopefully have the launch control hold revs at ~3500rpm (no way to test this at the time as my clutch safety switch was non operational). Car feels livelier and pulls better near the top, so I can safely say his work is solid. Price is more than fair for the time spent and results gained. Highly recommend this tuner to anyone with a 4G looking for a little more go for their show.
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Old April 4th, 2017, 02:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Michael,
I'm in Knox TN. I don't feel like messing around with cables and computers and doing this junk myself unless it's going to save me a bunch of headache. How much is the cable and where can I get it? Then I'm guessing I get access to software after payment, does this let me do any of my own adjustments or is it like flashing a phone where you root it to get Admin permissions and burn your own ROM or even like editing the windows registry as an Admin? I'm very computer and android literate but I'm also prone to taking the easy way out (more of a check writer). If I pulled my little red ECU box and shipped it to you with a complete list and pictures of my car, my Vin, and everything I've done to it along with any obd2 codes and my driving style with likes and dislikes about the performance such as shift points and torque curves could you work your magic on it and send it back? How long would it take (I have a second vehicle). How much would it cost me? What are the benefits of me buying said cable ? I have 3 good laptops so that's not a worry. I"m just looking for the ease and benefit of doing it myself. I have done a bunch of reading on this site even years before I joined so you can see I normally only post and ask questions when I really need input and clarification. I'm sure this has been discussed a few times but I could not find anything that directly answered my specific scenarios above. Anyone is welcome to answer and/or PM me. You can see what I've got in the post above and I will definitely be paying someone for a tune in May, I don't have much of a cash flow problem. What are my options and what are my best options?

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Old April 4th, 2017, 09:32 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikcvr View Post
Michael,
I'm in Knox TN. I don't feel like messing around with cables and computers and doing this junk myself unless it's going to save me a bunch of headache. How much is the cable and where can I get it? Then I'm guessing I get access to software after payment, does this let me do any of my own adjustments or is it like flashing a phone where you root it to get Admin permissions and burn your own ROM or even like editing the windows registry as an Admin? I'm very computer and android literate but I'm also prone to taking the easy way out (more of a check writer). If I pulled my little red ECU box and shipped it to you with a complete list and pictures of my car, my Vin, and everything I've done to it along with any obd2 codes and my driving style with likes and dislikes about the performance such as shift points and torque curves could you work your magic on it and send it back? How long would it take (I have a second vehicle). How much would it cost me? What are the benefits of me buying said cable ? I have 3 good laptops so that's not a worry. I"m just looking for the ease and benefit of doing it myself. I have done a bunch of reading on this site even years before I joined so you can see I normally only post and ask questions when I really need input and clarification. I'm sure this has been discussed a few times but I could not find anything that directly answered my specific scenarios above. Anyone is welcome to answer and/or PM me. You can see what I've got in the post above and I will definitely be paying someone for a tune in May, I don't have much of a cash flow problem. What are my options and what are my best options?
Check your PMs
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