Mitsubishi Eclipse 4G Forums banner

1 - 20 of 59 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi, in case anyone hadn't seen my introduction, I joined here because I was just poking around the internet looking to see if there was any interesting feedback regarding products with which I have had engineering involvement.

I was involved as an engineer with the 4G convertible top. I may be able to answer some questions, but I'll point out that this was (at this point) activity that is about 5 years in the past and I have changed employers since then, so there is the possibility I might have mistaken recollections, but for anyone with an interest I'm sure I can piece together any gaps.

My responsibilities didn't include vehicle level responsibilities. I understand, as far as that goes, that when you push the raise or lower button that lowering the top starts with the vehicle lowering the windows. That knowledge was peripheral to my area of responsibility, and anything more in-depth might be something I can't help with - for example, I'm not familiar with trouble codes or the meaning of the beeps. I had some knowledge about that, but I've forgotten it.

As for the convertible top itself, I will be able to describe it in detail - my hope is that by describing the system, perhaps the information will be helpful for those needing to resolve issues. I've seen that the most frequent convertible related subject matter seems to be that the convertible top won't close. By understanding how the system works, perhaps I can help in resolving this kind of issue.

In participating in these forums, I'll also point out that I know things about design history and testing issues, these are probably things I'd be bound to not share. The information I will offer will be things that could probably be figured out by anyone with access to parts and a little time to study them.

GENERAL

The Mitsubishi 4th gen Eclipse convertible is a cloth convertible top with a back window bonded to the fabric. The top raises and lowers by way of a hydraulic rotary actuator with 2 hydraulic cylinders for raising and lowering the 5th top bow and 1 hydraulic cylinder for raising and lowering the tonneau cover. The hydraulic system is operated by a single pump run by an electric motor, and with valving which is triggered by electronics which receives signals from certain switches I'll describe later. When the top is closed, it is secured at the 1st top bow to the windshield header by two manually operated mechanical latches.

The convertible top has 5 bows and siderails are in 3 sections. Starting from the rear, the 4 & 5 bows operate from a common pivot at the rear of the rear rail and the 3 bow operates from a fixed (non-pivoting) attachment at the front of the rear rail. The 2-bow has a pivot attachment to the front rail and is constrained somewhat by a cable. The 2nd through 5th bows are all made from aluminum extrusions. The 1st bow bolts to the front of the front rails and is a large aluminum casting (all of the side rails are aluminum castings)

A stamped metal link connects the center rail to a bracket on the hydraulic actuator, setting the mechanical motion of the center rail during top operation. A 3-piece linkage connects the rear rail to the center and front rails to control articulation of the front rail during top operation. The rear rail is driven through a link bolted to it which is operated by a hydraulic motor.

OPERATION SEQUENCE - OPENNING THE TOP

Before operation, the latches at the 1-bow to the windshield header should be open. The 1-bow should raise slightly, and switches in the receivers on the windshield header will detect that the pins on the 1-bow have raised. (There may only be 1 receiver that has a switch, I forget)

1) When the user pushes the open button, first the vehicle body control module lowers the windows.
2) When the windows are lowered, the vehicle sends the signal to the top to begin opening.
3) The hydraulic cylinders are extended to raise the 5-bow. These hydraulic cylinders have switches to signal when they are extended.
4) When the signal is received that the 5-bow is raised, the hydraulic cylinder to open the tonneau cover begins to extend. The flipper doors raise with the tonneau and remain in the down position.
5) When the tonneau hydraulic cylinder's position switches indicate the tonneau is raised, the convertible top will begin to cycle until a position switch on the side of one hydraulic rotary actuator detects that the top is lowered. As the top lowers, a mechanical cable connected to the rear rail drive link will allow the flipper door to raise.
6) This will trigger the hydraulic system to close the tonneau cover. When the tonneau cover is in the closed position, the latch will close.

I don't recall the latch details, I think it was also operated by a hydraulic cylinder, but that was a little peripheral. My company supplied the hydraulic system with the top, and that included all hydraulic cylinders, and we supplied the flipper doors, but we didn't supply the tonneau cover. I think we supplied the tonneau latch, but it wasn't my area of responsibility so my recollection about that component is a little sketchy.

OPERATING SEQUENCE - CLOSING THE TOP

Pretty much the reverse of the above opening procedure.

MANUAL OPERATION

Generally speaking, the easy part is raising and lowering the top. It is the 5-bow and tonneau cover hydraulic cylinders that need the release valve opened. The hydraulic pressure for these cylinders does not require pump pressure to hold position (if there are no system leaks) and the cylinders will not move unless you open the manual operation valve.

My recollection is a little hazy, I remember something about a hex-shaped emergency tool and you use this to operate the tonneau latch and the 5-bow... What I do remember is that operating the 5-bow by pushing on the 5-bow was a good way to bend linkages, resulting in the 5-bow not properly sealing when the top is closed and potentially interfering with the top being able to lower completely when the top is open.

TOP NOT OPERATING

Some things you can check for, armed with the knowledge of how the top works, might make it possible to do a simple repair without having to go to a dealership. Here are things which might cause the top to not operate:

1) A hydraulic leak or the manual operation valve may cause the top to raise partially or raise slowly. Either way, the pump will operate for some time and when the expected switch isn't activated when the computer expects to see it, a fault code will be set.
2) Another thing that could happen is that once the tonneau or 5-bow is raised, a loss of hydraulic pressure might cause either or both to start dropping back down. I think this might be detected when a switch changes state, which can either interrupt operation or cause the system to change cycles. If this is happening, watch out for parts crashing into each other.

3) If the system reaches a certain point, and it keeps pumping (like say for example the 5-bow raises but the top doesn't start lowering) it might indicate that a position sensor/switch is not working. Check for broken wires or in the case of the top up/down switch on the side of the hydraulic motor, maybe the bracket is bent and the switch isn't contacting properly. You might be able to fix broken wires or bent brackets on your own. Otherwise it might be a bad switch which would require a replacement part.
4) Receiver switches sticking in the 1-bow (or forgetting to unlatch) can keep the system from cycling.
5) If the windows don't lower it can keep the system from cycling
6) The trunk being open will stop the tonneau from opening (IIRC)

:blah:

Maybe I'll leave it at that for now, if there's any questions I can answer or corrections I should make I'd be glad to hear it!
 

·
The Postwhore's Postwhore
Joined
·
6,637 Posts
My top opens fine, but when I press the close button, the hatch area opens and the cloth cover raises about an inch then stops. The pump is running the whole time. I have to hold the close button and reach back there to "help" the top up till about half way, then it will close. Any suggestions?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
My top opens fine, but when I press the close button, the hatch area opens and the cloth cover raises about an inch then stops. The pump is running the whole time. I have to hold the close button and reach back there to "help" the top up till about half way, then it will close. Any suggestions?
The first thing I would check would be the fluid level in the hydraulic system reservoir.

Basicly, once the top is past the half way point, it can pretty much fall through the rest of the way without any hydraulic assistance at all.

The hydraulic rotary actuator that drives the convertible top is actually a hydraulic piston which drives a set of gear teeth on the shaft, and these teeth drive a gear that provides the rotating input to the rear rail. So if there wasn't enough fluid in the system to fill the piston, it might not be able to complete a cycle.

This can also happen if the manual operation valve is not fully tightenned. My recollection of the torque spec is that as tight as normal people can get it by hand is under spec. If you can easily turn it by hand, you can probably get air through the screw and the system won't get enough hydraulic pressure to raise the top.

Other than that, there are possibilities that there could be something bent or worn, in which case there should be other problems such as gaps between the rear of the top and the tonneau panel when the top is closed or wrinkles from loose fabric.

It is also possible, if the fluid level is good and the manual release valve is tight, that a seal in the hydraulic system might be leaking internally. For a 2008, if it's still in warranty, this would definitely be something that should be fixed under warranty by the dealer. If this is the repair that is needed, it involves removing the top assembly - which is a 2-person job. I've done it, there are worse things to have to do on a car, but it involves unbolting things from the rear rail - which is aluminum, always the possibility of losing threads - so if the dealer does that, then they'd be responsible for replacing those parts too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
1st bow switches / sensors...

About those sensors, I think my problem stems from them.

Top closes and thumps into the closed position like it always has. BUt window switches won't send the windows up. Fiddle a bit with things (open / close both top latches several times, etc.) and I can get the windows to go up.

Top's open & close buttons now won't work (yes, I unlatched the top!) the audible tone just beeeeeps and the top won't go down.

I let it sit overnight and the next morning the top goes down just fine. Comes up and does the same thing again...

Its August now, as I recall it acted this way ONE day, the first day I took it out this spring. I've used it every day thru the summer with no interceeding problems!

As you said, you're not sure there are sensors in both or one latch.... when I latch / unlatch the driver side latch there's a beep. When I do the same with the passenger side there's no beep. I don't recall if that's normal. Maybe someone whose top works can confirm??

Seems like a sensor issue to me.
Trying to figure out if this is a dealer repair or a do-it-yourself one.

Any help appreciated!!

Thanks!!
Alex
 

·
Pussy Magnet = Stock
Joined
·
4,553 Posts
About those sensors, I think my problem stems from them.

Top closes and thumps into the closed position like it always has. BUt window switches won't send the windows up. Fiddle a bit with things (open / close both top latches several times, etc.) and I can get the windows to go up.

Top's open & close buttons now won't work (yes, I unlatched the top!) the audible tone just beeeeeps and the top won't go down.

I let it sit overnight and the next morning the top goes down just fine. Comes up and does the same thing again...

Its August now, as I recall it acted this way ONE day, the first day I took it out this spring. I've used it every day thru the summer with no interceeding problems!

As you said, you're not sure there are sensors in both or one latch.... when I latch / unlatch the driver side latch there's a beep. When I do the same with the passenger side there's no beep. I don't recall if that's normal. Maybe someone whose top works can confirm??

Seems like a sensor issue to me.
Trying to figure out if this is a dealer repair or a do-it-yourself one.

Any help appreciated!!

Thanks!!
Alex

When you close the top, the windows going back up are not part of the cycle. It only makes sure the windows are down to prevent any catching of weather seal on the windows. Same reason that when you halfway open the door latch (inside or outside) the window creeps down about a 1/4 of an inch. This is to save your weather seal and top from catching, ripping, stretching, tearing on the window or door.




Now, I have an issue with my convertible system. I don't know what it is, but when I first cold start the car and attempt to lower the top, the first stage happens fine with the 5 bow lifting, but as soon as the tonneau cover begins to lift, my engine RPM begins to drop, when it fully raises and the top begins to come back my engine will sometimes die. It's almost as if the hydraulics in the top is drawing power from my engine for some reason. As you say it's an electrical hydraulic pump, but why would it cause my engine to die?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
Mine did the same. I even have it on video. This issue started at the 10,000 mile mark. What a product Mitsubishi offers. I took it to the dealership. They "fixed" the problem. They said some J-plug connector was disconected. So basically check around for some wires that came un-plugged I guess.

I had to also have my top completely replaced. The inliner came un-stitched and started falling down. The outer top started to get two perfectly symetrical holes at the back window. Mitsu replaced the top.

Now the back convertible cover doesn't want to lift when you go to put the top down. These cars are piece of shits. I am the original owner and have paid off my car. I would trade in the piece of shit so I dont have to deal with this anymore. Only problem being, the cars aint worth squat. Guess Im just stuck with this mistake of my life
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hi, in case anyone hadn't seen my introduction, I joined here because I was just poking around the internet looking to see if there was any interesting feedback regarding products with which I have had engineering involvement.

I was involved as an engineer with the 4G convertible top. I may be able to answer some questions, but I'll point out that this was (at this point) activity that is about 5 years in the past and I have changed employers since then, so there is the possibility I might have mistaken recollections, but for anyone with an interest I'm sure I can piece together any gaps.

My responsibilities didn't include vehicle level responsibilities. I understand, as far as that goes, that when you push the raise or lower button that lowering the top starts with the vehicle lowering the windows. That knowledge was peripheral to my area of responsibility, and anything more in-depth might be something I can't help with - for example, I'm not familiar with trouble codes or the meaning of the beeps. I had some knowledge about that, but I've forgotten it.

As for the convertible top itself, I will be able to describe it in detail - my hope is that by describing the system, perhaps the information will be helpful for those needing to resolve issues. I've seen that the most frequent convertible related subject matter seems to be that the convertible top won't close. By understanding how the system works, perhaps I can help in resolving this kind of issue.

In participating in these forums, I'll also point out that I know things about design history and testing issues, these are probably things I'd be bound to not share. The information I will offer will be things that could probably be figured out by anyone with access to parts and a little time to study them.

GENERAL

The Mitsubishi 4th gen Eclipse convertible is a cloth convertible top with a back window bonded to the fabric. The top raises and lowers by way of a hydraulic rotary actuator with 2 hydraulic cylinders for raising and lowering the 5th top bow and 1 hydraulic cylinder for raising and lowering the tonneau cover. The hydraulic system is operated by a single pump run by an electric motor, and with valving which is triggered by electronics which receives signals from certain switches I'll describe later. When the top is closed, it is secured at the 1st top bow to the windshield header by two manually operated mechanical latches.

The convertible top has 5 bows and siderails are in 3 sections. Starting from the rear, the 4 & 5 bows operate from a common pivot at the rear of the rear rail and the 3 bow operates from a fixed (non-pivoting) attachment at the front of the rear rail. The 2-bow has a pivot attachment to the front rail and is constrained somewhat by a cable. The 2nd through 5th bows are all made from aluminum extrusions. The 1st bow bolts to the front of the front rails and is a large aluminum casting (all of the side rails are aluminum castings)

A stamped metal link connects the center rail to a bracket on the hydraulic actuator, setting the mechanical motion of the center rail during top operation. A 3-piece linkage connects the rear rail to the center and front rails to control articulation of the front rail during top operation. The rear rail is driven through a link bolted to it which is operated by a hydraulic motor.

OPERATION SEQUENCE - OPENNING THE TOP

Before operation, the latches at the 1-bow to the windshield header should be open. The 1-bow should raise slightly, and switches in the receivers on the windshield header will detect that the pins on the 1-bow have raised. (There may only be 1 receiver that has a switch, I forget)

1) When the user pushes the open button, first the vehicle body control module lowers the windows.
2) When the windows are lowered, the vehicle sends the signal to the top to begin opening.
3) The hydraulic cylinders are extended to raise the 5-bow. These hydraulic cylinders have switches to signal when they are extended.
4) When the signal is received that the 5-bow is raised, the hydraulic cylinder to open the tonneau cover begins to extend. The flipper doors raise with the tonneau and remain in the down position.
5) When the tonneau hydraulic cylinder's position switches indicate the tonneau is raised, the convertible top will begin to cycle until a position switch on the side of one hydraulic rotary actuator detects that the top is lowered. As the top lowers, a mechanical cable connected to the rear rail drive link will allow the flipper door to raise.
6) This will trigger the hydraulic system to close the tonneau cover. When the tonneau cover is in the closed position, the latch will close.

I don't recall the latch details, I think it was also operated by a hydraulic cylinder, but that was a little peripheral. My company supplied the hydraulic system with the top, and that included all hydraulic cylinders, and we supplied the flipper doors, but we didn't supply the tonneau cover. I think we supplied the tonneau latch, but it wasn't my area of responsibility so my recollection about that component is a little sketchy.

OPERATING SEQUENCE - CLOSING THE TOP

Pretty much the reverse of the above opening procedure.

MANUAL OPERATION

Generally speaking, the easy part is raising and lowering the top. It is the 5-bow and tonneau cover hydraulic cylinders that need the release valve opened. The hydraulic pressure for these cylinders does not require pump pressure to hold position (if there are no system leaks) and the cylinders will not move unless you open the manual operation valve.

My recollection is a little hazy, I remember something about a hex-shaped emergency tool and you use this to operate the tonneau latch and the 5-bow... What I do remember is that operating the 5-bow by pushing on the 5-bow was a good way to bend linkages, resulting in the 5-bow not properly sealing when the top is closed and potentially interfering with the top being able to lower completely when the top is open.

TOP NOT OPERATING

Some things you can check for, armed with the knowledge of how the top works, might make it possible to do a simple repair without having to go to a dealership. Here are things which might cause the top to not operate:

1) A hydraulic leak or the manual operation valve may cause the top to raise partially or raise slowly. Either way, the pump will operate for some time and when the expected switch isn't activated when the computer expects to see it, a fault code will be set.
2) Another thing that could happen is that once the tonneau or 5-bow is raised, a loss of hydraulic pressure might cause either or both to start dropping back down. I think this might be detected when a switch changes state, which can either interrupt operation or cause the system to change cycles. If this is happening, watch out for parts crashing into each other.

3) If the system reaches a certain point, and it keeps pumping (like say for example the 5-bow raises but the top doesn't start lowering) it might indicate that a position sensor/switch is not working. Check for broken wires or in the case of the top up/down switch on the side of the hydraulic motor, maybe the bracket is bent and the switch isn't contacting properly. You might be able to fix broken wires or bent brackets on your own. Otherwise it might be a bad switch which would require a replacement part.
4) Receiver switches sticking in the 1-bow (or forgetting to unlatch) can keep the system from cycling.
5) If the windows don't lower it can keep the system from cycling
6) The trunk being open will stop the tonneau from opening (IIRC)

:blah:

Maybe I'll leave it at that for now, if there's any questions I can answer or corrections I should make I'd be glad to hear it!
I have a 07 eclipse convertible. The tonneaue goes up the top goes down but the tonneau will not go back down to finish the top down process.
Any thoughts as to what might be wrong?
Thanks a bunch!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Hi I have an 07 eclipse convertible. When putting the top down the tonneau goes up the top goes down but the tonneau will not go down from this point it stays in the up position..
Any ideas as to what might be wrong?
Thanks a bunch!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
There is a switch on the side of the rotary actuator - which will look like an aluminum block where the top pivots. It's on one side only, if I remember correctly it's on the passenger side. When the top is lowered, an arm on the top mechanism hits the switch sending a signal that the top is down and it's clear to start lowering the tonneau cover. Assuming there isn't anything binding in the top that prevents it from being lowered, the switch is the likely issue. Look for the plug to be disconnected, or a wire broken, or see if the switch bracket might be bent such that the top mechanism isn't activating the switch.

It will be on the inboard side of the actuator.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
My top opened up fine. Then when I went to close it, it would not close. You could see the top trying to push open the tonneau cover, but it would not open and the top never came out of the well. The beeper just beeped three times loudly at me and thats all it will do. I had to manually pull it out and put it back on. I took it to the dealership and after 3 days and after a new computer and sensor they came to the conclusion it was the hydraulic assyfolding (part #6559A001) which they priced at $2745 with $650 in labor. RIDICULOUS!!! I think they have just run out of things to tell me and just came up with this. Is there anyone who has had this problem and what did you do. Has anyone had to replace this part on their SPyder??? Is this not the same thing as the motor or what is this part anyway??!! Please HELP!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6 Posts
I am noticing two 1/4' tears forming at the very front of the top running parallel to the windshield probably about were the latches are on the inside. They are not completely through yet but as the are symmetrical I am wondering what is causing them? It doesn't look like anything in well would contact those spots. Any ideas??
2007 Eclipse Spyder....
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
216 Posts
I am noticing two 1/4' tears forming at the very front of the top running parallel to the windshield probably about were the latches are on the inside. They are not completely through yet but as the are symmetrical I am wondering what is causing them? It doesn't look like anything in well would contact those spots. Any ideas??
2007 Eclipse Spyder....
Here is a TSB about top wear on 2007-2009 Spyder: http://65.39.230.227/common/SiteMedia/Mitsubishi%20Eclispe%20Spyder%202007%20TSB-09-42A-013.pdf
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
216 Posts
I am noticing two 1/4' tears forming at the very front of the top running parallel to the windshield probably about were the latches are on the inside. They are not completely through yet but as the are symmetrical I am wondering what is causing them? It doesn't look like anything in well would contact those spots. Any ideas??
2007 Eclipse Spyder....
Welcome
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
My top opened up fine. Then when I went to close it, it would not close. You could see the top trying to push open the tonneau cover, but it would not open and the top never came out of the well. The beeper just beeped three times loudly at me and thats all it will do. I had to manually pull it out and put it back on. I took it to the dealership and after 3 days and after a new computer and sensor they came to the conclusion it was the hydraulic assyfolding (part #6559A001) which they priced at $2745 with $650 in labor. RIDICULOUS!!! I think they have just run out of things to tell me and just came up with this. Is there anyone who has had this problem and what did you do. Has anyone had to replace this part on their SPyder??? Is this not the same thing as the motor or what is this part anyway??!! Please HELP!!
For whatever reason I didn't get or notice an e-mail about new replies on this thread until the more recent responses.

At any rate I'm assuming that the car must be out of warranty. You're describing a condition that sounds like there has been a hydraulic leak.

If you're interested, although odds are I'd guess you're more interested in getting the car to work, I'd be able to explain some of the factors in the price being as much as it is...

If you're mechanically capable, the first thing you'd need to know is where the leak actually is and the dealer might have found that, or they might have just had to replace the hydraulic system complete - for the price it sounds more like a complete hydraulic system replace I think.

You may be able to find components through vehicle recyclers (junk yards) or e-bay. When I did a quick search I found a convertible top hydraulic pump used on e-bay for $130, for example. This part of the system would be relatively simple to replace. On the other hand, if the leak is from the hydraulic motors on each side, the convertible top would need to be removed to replace them. Replacing components of the sytem can cause a risk of trapping air bubbles, and if you have a good manual I'd expect that to be adressed... it's been a while, if I remember you just run the pump or cycle the top to get air bubbles out, but I can't remember for certain.

I'll watch for replies if you can provide more detail or want any suggestions. If you decide to just live with openning and closing the top manually, make sure to use the hex wrench tool for closing down the 5-bow at the rear.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #17
Just as an fyi to anyone that wanted to look into this for DIY, if you didn't already have a bolt there, make sure to use a hex head bolt and not a socket head cap screw (i.e. use one as shown in the TSB pictures). We tried a socket head cap screw first because it would've cleared easier, but with less contact area it wore metal away on the center rail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
Sensor light show top open when fully closed and locked

Where are the sensors that work the to open light on the console.

My top is closed and locked but the warning stays lit and the buzzer beeps when you start from a stop and then goes silent.

John Griffin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Where are the sensors that work the to open light on the console.

My top is closed and locked but the warning stays lit and the buzzer beeps when you start from a stop and then goes silent.

John Griffin
There is a switch in one of the two receivers in the windshield header that should sense the presence of the pin in the 1 bow. There was actually originally 2 switches in the design, and the error would be triggered if both were not sensing the pin, so depending on when it was made you might have one or both.
 
1 - 20 of 59 Posts
Top