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Hi, in case anyone hadn't seen my introduction, I joined here because I was just poking around the internet looking to see if there was any interesting feedback regarding products with which I have had engineering involvement.

I was involved as an engineer with the 4G convertible top. I may be able to answer some questions, but I'll point out that this was (at this point) activity that is about 5 years in the past and I have changed employers since then, so there is the possibility I might have mistaken recollections, but for anyone with an interest I'm sure I can piece together any gaps.

My responsibilities didn't include vehicle level responsibilities. I understand, as far as that goes, that when you push the raise or lower button that lowering the top starts with the vehicle lowering the windows. That knowledge was peripheral to my area of responsibility, and anything more in-depth might be something I can't help with - for example, I'm not familiar with trouble codes or the meaning of the beeps. I had some knowledge about that, but I've forgotten it.

As for the convertible top itself, I will be able to describe it in detail - my hope is that by describing the system, perhaps the information will be helpful for those needing to resolve issues. I've seen that the most frequent convertible related subject matter seems to be that the convertible top won't close. By understanding how the system works, perhaps I can help in resolving this kind of issue.

In participating in these forums, I'll also point out that I know things about design history and testing issues, these are probably things I'd be bound to not share. The information I will offer will be things that could probably be figured out by anyone with access to parts and a little time to study them.

GENERAL

The Mitsubishi 4th gen Eclipse convertible is a cloth convertible top with a back window bonded to the fabric. The top raises and lowers by way of a hydraulic rotary actuator with 2 hydraulic cylinders for raising and lowering the 5th top bow and 1 hydraulic cylinder for raising and lowering the tonneau cover. The hydraulic system is operated by a single pump run by an electric motor, and with valving which is triggered by electronics which receives signals from certain switches I'll describe later. When the top is closed, it is secured at the 1st top bow to the windshield header by two manually operated mechanical latches.

The convertible top has 5 bows and siderails are in 3 sections. Starting from the rear, the 4 & 5 bows operate from a common pivot at the rear of the rear rail and the 3 bow operates from a fixed (non-pivoting) attachment at the front of the rear rail. The 2-bow has a pivot attachment to the front rail and is constrained somewhat by a cable. The 2nd through 5th bows are all made from aluminum extrusions. The 1st bow bolts to the front of the front rails and is a large aluminum casting (all of the side rails are aluminum castings)

A stamped metal link connects the center rail to a bracket on the hydraulic actuator, setting the mechanical motion of the center rail during top operation. A 3-piece linkage connects the rear rail to the center and front rails to control articulation of the front rail during top operation. The rear rail is driven through a link bolted to it which is operated by a hydraulic motor.

OPERATION SEQUENCE - OPENNING THE TOP

Before operation, the latches at the 1-bow to the windshield header should be open. The 1-bow should raise slightly, and switches in the receivers on the windshield header will detect that the pins on the 1-bow have raised. (There may only be 1 receiver that has a switch, I forget)

1) When the user pushes the open button, first the vehicle body control module lowers the windows.
2) When the windows are lowered, the vehicle sends the signal to the top to begin opening.
3) The hydraulic cylinders are extended to raise the 5-bow. These hydraulic cylinders have switches to signal when they are extended.
4) When the signal is received that the 5-bow is raised, the hydraulic cylinder to open the tonneau cover begins to extend. The flipper doors raise with the tonneau and remain in the down position.
5) When the tonneau hydraulic cylinder's position switches indicate the tonneau is raised, the convertible top will begin to cycle until a position switch on the side of one hydraulic rotary actuator detects that the top is lowered. As the top lowers, a mechanical cable connected to the rear rail drive link will allow the flipper door to raise.
6) This will trigger the hydraulic system to close the tonneau cover. When the tonneau cover is in the closed position, the latch will close.

I don't recall the latch details, I think it was also operated by a hydraulic cylinder, but that was a little peripheral. My company supplied the hydraulic system with the top, and that included all hydraulic cylinders, and we supplied the flipper doors, but we didn't supply the tonneau cover. I think we supplied the tonneau latch, but it wasn't my area of responsibility so my recollection about that component is a little sketchy.

OPERATING SEQUENCE - CLOSING THE TOP

Pretty much the reverse of the above opening procedure.

MANUAL OPERATION

Generally speaking, the easy part is raising and lowering the top. It is the 5-bow and tonneau cover hydraulic cylinders that need the release valve opened. The hydraulic pressure for these cylinders does not require pump pressure to hold position (if there are no system leaks) and the cylinders will not move unless you open the manual operation valve.

My recollection is a little hazy, I remember something about a hex-shaped emergency tool and you use this to operate the tonneau latch and the 5-bow... What I do remember is that operating the 5-bow by pushing on the 5-bow was a good way to bend linkages, resulting in the 5-bow not properly sealing when the top is closed and potentially interfering with the top being able to lower completely when the top is open.

TOP NOT OPERATING

Some things you can check for, armed with the knowledge of how the top works, might make it possible to do a simple repair without having to go to a dealership. Here are things which might cause the top to not operate:

1) A hydraulic leak or the manual operation valve may cause the top to raise partially or raise slowly. Either way, the pump will operate for some time and when the expected switch isn't activated when the computer expects to see it, a fault code will be set.
2) Another thing that could happen is that once the tonneau or 5-bow is raised, a loss of hydraulic pressure might cause either or both to start dropping back down. I think this might be detected when a switch changes state, which can either interrupt operation or cause the system to change cycles. If this is happening, watch out for parts crashing into each other.

3) If the system reaches a certain point, and it keeps pumping (like say for example the 5-bow raises but the top doesn't start lowering) it might indicate that a position sensor/switch is not working. Check for broken wires or in the case of the top up/down switch on the side of the hydraulic motor, maybe the bracket is bent and the switch isn't contacting properly. You might be able to fix broken wires or bent brackets on your own. Otherwise it might be a bad switch which would require a replacement part.
4) Receiver switches sticking in the 1-bow (or forgetting to unlatch) can keep the system from cycling.
5) If the windows don't lower it can keep the system from cycling
6) The trunk being open will stop the tonneau from opening (IIRC)

:blah:

Maybe I'll leave it at that for now, if there's any questions I can answer or corrections I should make I'd be glad to hear it!

I have a 09 eclipse convertible. The tonneaue goes up the top goes down but the tonneau will not go back down to finish the top down process.
Any thoughts as to what might be wrong?
Thanks a bunch!
 
No I haven't so frustrated
I finally.did. the pressure release valve had been opened.to.far and not tightened correctly so hydro fluid was leaking out of the pump. It cause air in the lines and the whole system to.sieze up. I got everything tightened correctly refilled fluid and it was hell to get the air out of the lines and fluid thru but now everything is working as it should. I hope this helps
 
Hi, in case anyone hadn't seen my introduction, I joined here because I was just poking around the internet looking to see if there was any interesting feedback regarding products with which I have had engineering involvement.

I was involved as an engineer with the 4G convertible top. I may be able to answer some questions, but I'll point out that this was (at this point) activity that is about 5 years in the past and I have changed employers since then, so there is the possibility I might have mistaken recollections, but for anyone with an interest I'm sure I can piece together any gaps.

My responsibilities didn't include vehicle level responsibilities. I understand, as far as that goes, that when you push the raise or lower button that lowering the top starts with the vehicle lowering the windows. That knowledge was peripheral to my area of responsibility, and anything more in-depth might be something I can't help with - for example, I'm not familiar with trouble codes or the meaning of the beeps. I had some knowledge about that, but I've forgotten it.

As for the convertible top itself, I will be able to describe it in detail - my hope is that by describing the system, perhaps the information will be helpful for those needing to resolve issues. I've seen that the most frequent convertible related subject matter seems to be that the convertible top won't close. By understanding how the system works, perhaps I can help in resolving this kind of issue.

In participating in these forums, I'll also point out that I know things about design history and testing issues, these are probably things I'd be bound to not share. The information I will offer will be things that could probably be figured out by anyone with access to parts and a little time to study them.

GENERAL

The Mitsubishi 4th gen Eclipse convertible is a cloth convertible top with a back window bonded to the fabric. The top raises and lowers by way of a hydraulic rotary actuator with 2 hydraulic cylinders for raising and lowering the 5th top bow and 1 hydraulic cylinder for raising and lowering the tonneau cover. The hydraulic system is operated by a single pump run by an electric motor, and with valving which is triggered by electronics which receives signals from certain switches I'll describe later. When the top is closed, it is secured at the 1st top bow to the windshield header by two manually operated mechanical latches.

The convertible top has 5 bows and siderails are in 3 sections. Starting from the rear, the 4 & 5 bows operate from a common pivot at the rear of the rear rail and the 3 bow operates from a fixed (non-pivoting) attachment at the front of the rear rail. The 2-bow has a pivot attachment to the front rail and is constrained somewhat by a cable. The 2nd through 5th bows are all made from aluminum extrusions. The 1st bow bolts to the front of the front rails and is a large aluminum casting (all of the side rails are aluminum castings)

A stamped metal link connects the center rail to a bracket on the hydraulic actuator, setting the mechanical motion of the center rail during top operation. A 3-piece linkage connects the rear rail to the center and front rails to control articulation of the front rail during top operation. The rear rail is driven through a link bolted to it which is operated by a hydraulic motor.

OPERATION SEQUENCE - OPENNING THE TOP

Before operation, the latches at the 1-bow to the windshield header should be open. The 1-bow should raise slightly, and switches in the receivers on the windshield header will detect that the pins on the 1-bow have raised. (There may only be 1 receiver that has a switch, I forget)

1) When the user pushes the open button, first the vehicle body control module lowers the windows.
2) When the windows are lowered, the vehicle sends the signal to the top to begin opening.
3) The hydraulic cylinders are extended to raise the 5-bow. These hydraulic cylinders have switches to signal when they are extended.
4) When the signal is received that the 5-bow is raised, the hydraulic cylinder to open the tonneau cover begins to extend. The flipper doors raise with the tonneau and remain in the down position.
5) When the tonneau hydraulic cylinder's position switches indicate the tonneau is raised, the convertible top will begin to cycle until a position switch on the side of one hydraulic rotary actuator detects that the top is lowered. As the top lowers, a mechanical cable connected to the rear rail drive link will allow the flipper door to raise.
6) This will trigger the hydraulic system to close the tonneau cover. When the tonneau cover is in the closed position, the latch will close.

I don't recall the latch details, I think it was also operated by a hydraulic cylinder, but that was a little peripheral. My company supplied the hydraulic system with the top, and that included all hydraulic cylinders, and we supplied the flipper doors, but we didn't supply the tonneau cover. I think we supplied the tonneau latch, but it wasn't my area of responsibility so my recollection about that component is a little sketchy.

OPERATING SEQUENCE - CLOSING THE TOP

Pretty much the reverse of the above opening procedure.

MANUAL OPERATION

Generally speaking, the easy part is raising and lowering the top. It is the 5-bow and tonneau cover hydraulic cylinders that need the release valve opened. The hydraulic pressure for these cylinders does not require pump pressure to hold position (if there are no system leaks) and the cylinders will not move unless you open the manual operation valve.

My recollection is a little hazy, I remember something about a hex-shaped emergency tool and you use this to operate the tonneau latch and the 5-bow... What I do remember is that operating the 5-bow by pushing on the 5-bow was a good way to bend linkages, resulting in the 5-bow not properly sealing when the top is closed and potentially interfering with the top being able to lower completely when the top is open.

TOP NOT OPERATING

Some things you can check for, armed with the knowledge of how the top works, might make it possible to do a simple repair without having to go to a dealership. Here are things which might cause the top to not operate:

1) A hydraulic leak or the manual operation valve may cause the top to raise partially or raise slowly. Either way, the pump will operate for some time and when the expected switch isn't activated when the computer expects to see it, a fault code will be set.
2) Another thing that could happen is that once the tonneau or 5-bow is raised, a loss of hydraulic pressure might cause either or both to start dropping back down. I think this might be detected when a switch changes state, which can either interrupt operation or cause the system to change cycles. If this is happening, watch out for parts crashing into each other.

3) If the system reaches a certain point, and it keeps pumping (like say for example the 5-bow raises but the top doesn't start lowering) it might indicate that a position sensor/switch is not working. Check for broken wires or in the case of the top up/down switch on the side of the hydraulic motor, maybe the bracket is bent and the switch isn't contacting properly. You might be able to fix broken wires or bent brackets on your own. Otherwise it might be a bad switch which would require a replacement part.
4) Receiver switches sticking in the 1-bow (or forgetting to unlatch) can keep the system from cycling.
5) If the windows don't lower it can keep the system from cycling
6) The trunk being open will stop the tonneau from opening (IIRC)

:blah:

Maybe I'll leave it at that for now, if there's any questions I can answer or corrections I should make I'd be glad to hear it!
What is the likely cause for leaks on both side a-pillars?
 
Discussion starter · #64 ·
What is the likely cause for leaks on both side a-pillars?
Darn I have this thread marked to follow it but I haven't been getting notifications. I did get a notification from your PM. So for anybody else finding this thread, please PM me if you have questions and I will answer. My time as an engineer at ASC was definitely the job I've liked the most in my career, and it's unfortunate that the existence of convertibles just isn't that common anymore. Back in those days there were 4 tier one suppliers of convertibles, and with the economic downturn they consolidated to 2 suppliers. I haven't kept up, for all I know at this point it's likely that what few convertible programs still exist they most likely are done in-house by the OEM's.

If you still need to know about this, I'm not sure what you mean. The A-pillars would refer to the side of the windshield, do you mean leaks at the windows? The windows should drop when the top starts to open so that the window seals don't rub or tear, and perhaps they aren't returning to the home position. If that's what you mean.

If you mean hydraulic fluid, there are no hydraulics near the A-pillars, but the hydraulic motors might be leaking and spraying the top or headliner or something while the top is stowed.

But those are just guesses.
 
Discussion starter · #65 ·
I have a 09 eclipse convertible. The tonneaue goes up the top goes down but the tonneau will not go back down to finish the top down process.
Any thoughts as to what might be wrong?
Thanks a bunch!
Sorry I didn't catch it sooner, like I said I haven't been getting notification. But I'll answer anyway in case it helps or somebody happens to have a similar problem.

The system needs to sense a few things to go into the lowering the tonneau cover step. If the relief valve is open or there is a leak otherwise, the tonneau cover might drop a little and the sensor wouldn't indicate that it's full open, and the system might not start the close cycle. It has been a long time, but I think we had that happen a couple times.

If this happens check the hydraulic system to see if the relief valve is not fully closed. If the cover drooped down a little, you might be able to get the sensor to read full open by pushing it up (don't use too much force)

You can always open the relief valve so the cover can be lowered manually of course.

If it wasn't because of a hydraulic leak or the valve being open then my next suspect would be the position sensing switch on the hydraulic cylinder.
 
Discussion starter · #66 ·
Hey any ideas for a good hydraulic fluid to be use on the 2007 spyder gs convertible top motor?....Mitsubishi discontinued the original fluid.
Dang... Here I am telling people to go to their Mitsubishi dealer for hydraulic fluid, only to realize I have been out of it so long that it's discontinued.

Okay I can't guarantee this is correct, but I'm sure anybody looking for this is at a point that desperate times call for desperate measures. Personally I would've been trying to figure out what other convertible top systems use hydraulics. The common ones are probably electric, for example Ford Mustang, so no help there. I've been out of the segment too long to be able to name any hydraulic convertible tops off the top of my head.

Okay, before I post I accessed my memory banks, and while I was at ASC (tier 1 supplier for Mitsubishi Eclipse convertible top) we also supplied the convertible top for the Chevy SSR, and if I recall correctly that top also used Power Packer hydraulics.

There seems to be more info out there about Chevy SSR hydraulic fluid, and I ran across a post that listed some other sources namely:

Chevy's part numbers for the fluid are 89022748 and 88865214. With a current MSRP of $46.70, it is terribly overpriced. I am not aware of anything special in the Chevy fluid, and am listing below some compatible fluids. The cheapest fluid in the list below is FeBi 02615, used by Mercedes-Benz in top systems with components almost identical to the SSR's. The list below is not covering all brands out there, but it's a good start:

FeBi 02615 (same as Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche fluid) some $10/quart. Available online, for example at Mercedes Convertible Top Hydraulic Pump Fluid (1 Liter) (MBZ Approval:343.0) 000989910310 - RM European Auto Parts (Top Hydraulics or I do not have a financial interest in this).
Mercedes-Benz A 000 989 91 03 (available at Mercedes dealers)
Pentosin CHF-11S (available in good parts stores)
Univis HVI 26 (pushed for Cadillac XLR and Corvette C6)
Saab 93165227
BMW 54340394395
Hoerbiger HB92952-215.

Power Packer also supplied hydraulics for Hill-Rom's hospital beds, I happened to work at Hill-Rom as an engineer after the economic downturn killed off ASC. Hill-Rom sells their hydraulic fluid and the packaging lists it as Exxon Nuto H-32

Hope this helps, and if anyone is able to try this and post results I'm sure it would help others in the future, but I can't make any guarantees I'm right either.

The biggest risk is that the hydraulic fluid has a compatibility problem with the seals in the system. If time and money was no object I'd run a test before adding a fluid that may or may not be the right one, I'd acquire a hydraulic piston seal (if necessary get a junk cylinder from a salvage yard) and measure its size, then soak it in a cup of fluid and see if the seal changes size. If it swells, hardens or cracks, then the fluid's probably not compatible.
 
Discussion starter · #67 ·
Flappers

Just bought a 07 spyder. At the dealership I wanted to try the top. It was under 32 degrees. It went down but the cover wouldn't close. The Engineer said when flappers close or open , does it have switch in the hinge of the flapper. To tell the computer to close the cover. Cause today I opened the top. It was 40degrees . Did same thing at dealership. They brought it inside last week when I bought it and said I was right it won't work below 32. They got it to close by the switch. Supposedly. Messed with it today, my flapper cable stay is broken so I was wondering that's why cover won't close. Also the one guy is right we need diagrams or pictures of switches and such. Any help would be appreciated
Sorry it's way late. We tested the top cycling down to 0 degrees F. It works slow. The test requirement was that we had to be able to get 6 cycles. But it worked. It may work less when the top is old. It's probably not the best idea.

The flap that is operated by cable is completely mechanical. The cable at the flap is operated by being pulled by wrapping around a cable guide at the main link on the rotary hydraulic actuator. It may have come out of the groove or the cable might be sticking. And it's plastic, the plastic may have broken especially if it's aged and brittle and was operated in conditions that would make the cable harder to operate (like cold).
 
Discussion starter · #68 ·
Awesome man! How was the pay as an engineer?
Back in 2006 I was making $26/hr. That's when the downturn started, convertible programs were being cancelled, and engineering jobs in Michigan were hard to find. I was lucky to get close to that with my next job in Indiana. Back at the GM tech center they were shutting off the escalators, keeping most of the lights off, and those that still had their jobs were getting $15/hr.

The funny thing is that I started out being contract and I was getting paid hourly, and I was happy to get hired on direct as a salaried engineer. But it meant all the trips I made to Boston to work with one of our casting suppliers got me the same paycheck, and United was terrible for making the connection through Washington Dulles. Had I still been contract I might have gotten overtime for all the extra hours while traveling being stuck - twice I had to sleep overnight in the airport!

For me, I was doing what I enjoyed. Really I didn't have any problem with the pay. But times have certainly changed.
 
Dang... Here I am telling people to go to their Mitsubishi dealer for hydraulic fluid, only to realize I have been out of it so long that it's discontinued.

Okay I can't guarantee this is correct, but I'm sure anybody looking for this is at a point that desperate times call for desperate measures. Personally I would've been trying to figure out what other convertible top systems use hydraulics. The common ones are probably electric, for example Ford Mustang, so no help there. I've been out of the segment too long to be able to name any hydraulic convertible tops off the top of my head.

Okay, before I post I accessed my memory banks, and while I was at ASC (tier 1 supplier for Mitsubishi Eclipse convertible top) we also supplied the convertible top for the Chevy SSR, and if I recall correctly that top also used Power Packer hydraulics.

There seems to be more info out there about Chevy SSR hydraulic fluid, and I ran across a post that listed some other sources namely:

Chevy's part numbers for the fluid are 89022748 and 88865214. With a current MSRP of $46.70, it is terribly overpriced. I am not aware of anything special in the Chevy fluid, and am listing below some compatible fluids. The cheapest fluid in the list below is FeBi 02615, used by Mercedes-Benz in top systems with components almost identical to the SSR's. The list below is not covering all brands out there, but it's a good start:

FeBi 02615 (same as Mercedes, BMW, and Porsche fluid) some $10/quart. Available online, for example at Mercedes Convertible Top Hydraulic Pump Fluid (1 Liter) (MBZ Approval:343.0) 000989910310 - RM European Auto Parts (Top Hydraulics or I do not have a financial interest in this).
Mercedes-Benz A 000 989 91 03 (available at Mercedes dealers)
Pentosin CHF-11S (available in good parts stores)
Univis HVI 26 (pushed for Cadillac XLR and Corvette C6)
Saab 93165227
BMW 54340394395
Hoerbiger HB92952-215.

Power Packer also supplied hydraulics for Hill-Rom's hospital beds, I happened to work at Hill-Rom as an engineer after the economic downturn killed off ASC. Hill-Rom sells their hydraulic fluid and the packaging lists it as Exxon Nuto H-32

Hope this helps, and if anyone is able to try this and post results I'm sure it would help others in the future, but I can't make any guarantees I'm right either.

The biggest risk is that the hydraulic fluid has a compatibility problem with the seals in the system. If time and money was no object I'd run a test before adding a fluid that may or may not be the right one, I'd acquire a hydraulic piston seal (if necessary get a junk cylinder from a salvage yard) and measure its size, then soak it in a cup of fluid and see if the seal changes size. If it swells, hardens or cracks, then the fluid's probably not compatible.
I have a 2007 Mitsubishi Spyder Eclipse that has hydraulic oil leaking from the cylinders. There are two companies in the U.S. that that rebuild cylinders for convertibles. One is Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines and the second is Convertible Top Cylinders | Cabriolet Hydraulics . Neither have remanufactured cylinders on the shelf for this vehicle so you must remove yours and send them in for remanufacturing. The problem I have is that no instructions are available on how to remove these cylinders. Would you be able to provide instructions on how to remove? I can't see how they are attached or fastened.
Hi, in case anyone hadn't seen my introduction, I joined here because I was just poking around the internet looking to see if there was any interesting feedback regarding products with which I have had engineering involvement.

I was involved as an engineer with the 4G convertible top. I may be able to answer some questions, but I'll point out that this was (at this point) activity that is about 5 years in the past and I have changed employers since then, so there is the possibility I might have mistaken recollections, but for anyone with an interest I'm sure I can piece together any gaps.

My responsibilities didn't include vehicle level responsibilities. I understand, as far as that goes, that when you push the raise or lower button that lowering the top starts with the vehicle lowering the windows. That knowledge was peripheral to my area of responsibility, and anything more in-depth might be something I can't help with - for example, I'm not familiar with trouble codes or the meaning of the beeps. I had some knowledge about that, but I've forgotten it.

As for the convertible top itself, I will be able to describe it in detail - my hope is that by describing the system, perhaps the information will be helpful for those needing to resolve issues. I've seen that the most frequent convertible related subject matter seems to be that the convertible top won't close. By understanding how the system works, perhaps I can help in resolving this kind of issue.

In participating in these forums, I'll also point out that I know things about design history and testing issues, these are probably things I'd be bound to not share. The information I will offer will be things that could probably be figured out by anyone with access to parts and a little time to study them.

GENERAL

The Mitsubishi 4th gen Eclipse convertible is a cloth convertible top with a back window bonded to the fabric. The top raises and lowers by way of a hydraulic rotary actuator with 2 hydraulic cylinders for raising and lowering the 5th top bow and 1 hydraulic cylinder for raising and lowering the tonneau cover. The hydraulic system is operated by a single pump run by an electric motor, and with valving which is triggered by electronics which receives signals from certain switches I'll describe later. When the top is closed, it is secured at the 1st top bow to the windshield header by two manually operated mechanical latches.

The convertible top has 5 bows and siderails are in 3 sections. Starting from the rear, the 4 & 5 bows operate from a common pivot at the rear of the rear rail and the 3 bow operates from a fixed (non-pivoting) attachment at the front of the rear rail. The 2-bow has a pivot attachment to the front rail and is constrained somewhat by a cable. The 2nd through 5th bows are all made from aluminum extrusions. The 1st bow bolts to the front of the front rails and is a large aluminum casting (all of the side rails are aluminum castings)

A stamped metal link connects the center rail to a bracket on the hydraulic actuator, setting the mechanical motion of the center rail during top operation. A 3-piece linkage connects the rear rail to the center and front rails to control articulation of the front rail during top operation. The rear rail is driven through a link bolted to it which is operated by a hydraulic motor.

OPERATION SEQUENCE - OPENNING THE TOP

Before operation, the latches at the 1-bow to the windshield header should be open. The 1-bow should raise slightly, and switches in the receivers on the windshield header will detect that the pins on the 1-bow have raised. (There may only be 1 receiver that has a switch, I forget)

1) When the user pushes the open button, first the vehicle body control module lowers the windows.
2) When the windows are lowered, the vehicle sends the signal to the top to begin opening.
3) The hydraulic cylinders are extended to raise the 5-bow. These hydraulic cylinders have switches to signal when they are extended.
4) When the signal is received that the 5-bow is raised, the hydraulic cylinder to open the tonneau cover begins to extend. The flipper doors raise with the tonneau and remain in the down position.
5) When the tonneau hydraulic cylinder's position switches indicate the tonneau is raised, the convertible top will begin to cycle until a position switch on the side of one hydraulic rotary actuator detects that the top is lowered. As the top lowers, a mechanical cable connected to the rear rail drive link will allow the flipper door to raise.
6) This will trigger the hydraulic system to close the tonneau cover. When the tonneau cover is in the closed position, the latch will close.

I don't recall the latch details, I think it was also operated by a hydraulic cylinder, but that was a little peripheral. My company supplied the hydraulic system with the top, and that included all hydraulic cylinders, and we supplied the flipper doors, but we didn't supply the tonneau cover. I think we supplied the tonneau latch, but it wasn't my area of responsibility so my recollection about that component is a little sketchy.

OPERATING SEQUENCE - CLOSING THE TOP

Pretty much the reverse of the above opening procedure.

MANUAL OPERATION

Generally speaking, the easy part is raising and lowering the top. It is the 5-bow and tonneau cover hydraulic cylinders that need the release valve opened. The hydraulic pressure for these cylinders does not require pump pressure to hold position (if there are no system leaks) and the cylinders will not move unless you open the manual operation valve.

My recollection is a little hazy, I remember something about a hex-shaped emergency tool and you use this to operate the tonneau latch and the 5-bow... What I do remember is that operating the 5-bow by pushing on the 5-bow was a good way to bend linkages, resulting in the 5-bow not properly sealing when the top is closed and potentially interfering with the top being able to lower completely when the top is open.

TOP NOT OPERATING

Some things you can check for, armed with the knowledge of how the top works, might make it possible to do a simple repair without having to go to a dealership. Here are things which might cause the top to not operate:

1) A hydraulic leak or the manual operation valve may cause the top to raise partially or raise slowly. Either way, the pump will operate for some time and when the expected switch isn't activated when the computer expects to see it, a fault code will be set.
2) Another thing that could happen is that once the tonneau or 5-bow is raised, a loss of hydraulic pressure might cause either or both to start dropping back down. I think this might be detected when a switch changes state, which can either interrupt operation or cause the system to change cycles. If this is happening, watch out for parts crashing into each other.

3) If the system reaches a certain point, and it keeps pumping (like say for example the 5-bow raises but the top doesn't start lowering) it might indicate that a position sensor/switch is not working. Check for broken wires or in the case of the top up/down switch on the side of the hydraulic motor, maybe the bracket is bent and the switch isn't contacting properly. You might be able to fix broken wires or bent brackets on your own. Otherwise it might be a bad switch which would require a replacement part.
4) Receiver switches sticking in the 1-bow (or forgetting to unlatch) can keep the system from cycling.
5) If the windows don't lower it can keep the system from cycling
6) The trunk being open will stop the tonneau from opening (IIRC)

:blah:

Maybe I'll leave it at that for now, if there's any questions I can answer or corrections I should make I'd be glad to hear it!
I have a 2007 Mitsubishi Spyder Eclipse with hydraulic fluid leaking from the Tonneau cylinder, the right and left 5th bow cylinders, the right and left secondary cylinders, the right and left main rotary actuator, and the Tonneau cover latch cylinder. Remanufactured cylinders are available from two sources in the U.S. - Top Hydraulics and Cabriolet Hydraulics. Do you have instructions on how to dismount each of these cylinders?
 
Discussion starter · #70 ·
I have a 2007 Mitsubishi Spyder Eclipse that has hydraulic oil leaking from the cylinders. There are two companies in the U.S. that that rebuild cylinders for convertibles. One is Top Hydraulics | Rebuilt and Upgraded Convertible Top Cylinders, Pumps, Hydraulic Lines and the second is Convertible Top Cylinders | Cabriolet Hydraulics . Neither have remanufactured cylinders on the shelf for this vehicle so you must remove yours and send them in for remanufacturing. The problem I have is that no instructions are available on how to remove these cylinders. Would you be able to provide instructions on how to remove? I can't see how they are attached or fastened.
So I can remember about the mechanical connections but I'm not sure about the hydraulics, So if this helps, I'm assuming when you refer to the cylinders you are talking about the linear hydraulic actuators for the 5 bow and tonneau cover. The rotary actuator that raises the top is probably more straightforward, and I'm going to assume you have the topstack removed from the vehicle if that's something you need to have rebuilt or you're sending a complete hydraulic system...

The hydraulic cylinder for the tonneau cover attaches on both ends to spherical pivots and are retained by a spring clip. All you need to do is put a flat screwdriver under the spring clip at the middle then the hydraulic cylinder should come right off. Same thing at both ends.

For the 5 bow the ends attach to pins that have e-clips to retain the cylinder. Those should come off with little prying with a small screwdriver and or small needle nose pliers, just don't let the fly off and get lost.

I checked youtube for videos and there's one but it's done by a guy in his garage so there's a bit of fumbling around, for what it's worth I'll add the link and it's at least good for some visual. There's clips that slide out for retaining the hydraulic hoses, I don't think I can describe it as well as what you might get from looking at the video.



If you are seeing leaks at the rotary actuator, I'd recommend removing the whole top assembly. The top attaches to the body at the aluminum block so there isn't really anything attaching the system to the body.

I'll be around and should get email notices if there's more replies here. Hope this helps.
 
My problem seems to be happening between steps 5 and 6. The top opens without issue, but the tonneau cover opens and then the process won't finish (roof retracts into the pocket and then everything stops with the tonneau cover open). At that point I have to turn the hydraulic valve manually to close the top. I've had it to a mechanic and a dealer who then take the back seat out to reset the hydraulic valve and declare it fixed because it works again... for one or two times until it happens again. I think it's a sensor or a valve but don't know where to look???

OPERATION SEQUENCE - OPENNING THE TOP

Before operation, the latches at the 1-bow to the windshield header should be open. The 1-bow should raise slightly, and switches in the receivers on the windshield header will detect that the pins on the 1-bow have raised. (There may only be 1 receiver that has a switch, I forget)

1) When the user pushes the open button, first the vehicle body control module lowers the windows.
2) When the windows are lowered, the vehicle sends the signal to the top to begin opening.
3) The hydraulic cylinders are extended to raise the 5-bow. These hydraulic cylinders have switches to signal when they are extended.
4) When the signal is received that the 5-bow is raised, the hydraulic cylinder to open the tonneau cover begins to extend. The flipper doors raise with the tonneau and remain in the down position.
5) When the tonneau hydraulic cylinder's position switches indicate the tonneau is raised, the convertible top will begin to cycle until a position switch on the side of one hydraulic rotary actuator detects that the top is lowered. As the top lowers, a mechanical cable connected to the rear rail drive link will allow the flipper door to raise.
6) This will trigger the hydraulic system to close the tonneau cover. When the tonneau cover is in the closed position, the latch will close.


I don't recall the latch details, I think it was also operated by a hydraulic cylinder, but that was a little peripheral. My company supplied the hydraulic system with the top, and that included all hydraulic cylinders, and we supplied the flipper doors, but we didn't supply the tonneau cover. I think we supplied the tonneau latch, but it wasn't my area of responsibility so my recollection about that component is a little sketchy.
 
Discussion starter · #72 ·
I would suspect it isn't detecting the top in the down position. There is a small switch on the side of the hydraulic motor on the right side and it's triggered by the shape of the metal link on the inboard side. There also is a switch to detect when that hits it the top up position, so if that works it most likely is switch related. Something like the switch being knocked out of position or a wire or connector problem.
 
I would suspect it isn't detecting the top in the down position. There is a small switch on the side of the hydraulic motor on the right side and it's triggered by the shape of the metal link on the inboard side. There also is a switch to detect when that hits it the top up position, so if that works it most likely is switch related. Something like the switch being knocked out of position or a wire or connector problem.
Is it the switch that is visible when the top is down on the right side?
 
Discussion starter · #74 ·
Is it the switch that is visible when the top is down on the right side?
I think so... bear in mind all this was nearly 20 years ago, and the convertible top supplier laid off half of all employees at once in 2006 and I was among that, and at the time we were trying to keep things afloat with cost saving design changes.

If you see an aluminum (silver color) block there should be a switch on the side and with the top down it should have a black metal part that presses the lever on the switch.
 
I think so... bear in mind all this was nearly 20 years ago, and the convertible top supplier laid off half of all employees at once in 2006 and I was among that, and at the time we were trying to keep things afloat with cost saving design changes.

If you see an aluminum (silver color) block there should be a switch on the side and with the top down it should have a black metal part that presses the lever on the switch.
I was poking around with it the other day and got it to work again sort of... I played with the engine stop start sequence (key on to aux power, off, on to aux power, off, then full start) which cleared the annoying long beep on every pull away from a dead stop, and the 3 beeps which means no top operation.

After that it opened and got stuck at the same place... top down, tonneau cover up. I released the hydraulic valve manually and closed the tonneau cover, so top fully down. It was a nice day, so took it out for a ride with the top down, then came home and thought ... why not... I'll try and close it.

Motors engaged, but the tonneau cover wouldn't open. I guess I locked it too hard.. Anyway, I loosened the lock position with the metal tool and pushed the closed button, and low and behold it closed. (I am willing to bet this is how the two mechanics got it working also).

Anyway, I now agree with your earlier statement "I would suspect it isn't detecting the top in the down position. There is a small switch on the side of the hydraulic motor on the right side and it's triggered by the shape of the metal link on the inboard side. There also is a switch to detect when that hits it the top up position, so if that works it most likely is switch related. Something like the switch being knocked out of position or a wire or connector problem. "

It works until I drive it and then stops working, so I believe there is something loose on a linkage, the switch is moving, or a wire / connector problem. Now I just need to find a wiring diagram or instruction manual to show me where the switches are and how to access them. I can see one switch on the driver's side in the cavity when the roof is down, but wasn't able to see anything on or near the hydraulic motor (on my model it's behind the subwoofer).

Thanks very much so far for your help... it's a journey :).
 
Discussion starter · #76 ·
I was poking around with it the other day and got it to work again sort of... I played with the engine stop start sequence (key on to aux power, off, on to aux power, off, then full start) which cleared the annoying long beep on every pull away from a dead stop, and the 3 beeps which means no top operation.

After that it opened and got stuck at the same place... top down, tonneau cover up. I released the hydraulic valve manually and closed the tonneau cover, so top fully down. It was a nice day, so took it out for a ride with the top down, then came home and thought ... why not... I'll try and close it.

Motors engaged, but the tonneau cover wouldn't open. I guess I locked it too hard.. Anyway, I loosened the lock position with the metal tool and pushed the closed button, and low and behold it closed. (I am willing to bet this is how the two mechanics got it working also).

Anyway, I now agree with your earlier statement "I would suspect it isn't detecting the top in the down position. There is a small switch on the side of the hydraulic motor on the right side and it's triggered by the shape of the metal link on the inboard side. There also is a switch to detect when that hits it the top up position, so if that works it most likely is switch related. Something like the switch being knocked out of position or a wire or connector problem. "

It works until I drive it and then stops working, so I believe there is something loose on a linkage, the switch is moving, or a wire / connector problem. Now I just need to find a wiring diagram or instruction manual to show me where the switches are and how to access them. I can see one switch on the driver's side in the cavity when the roof is down, but wasn't able to see anything on or near the hydraulic motor (on my model it's behind the subwoofer).

Thanks very much so far for your help... it's a journey :).
From an ebay search I found this to show the switches off vehicle. View attachment 104939
 
Ok. That is not the switch I was looking at. I haven't seen this one yet.. Will have another look next weekend. I assume those are on each side where the main hinges are?

Thank you very much
 
Discussion starter · #80 ·
That link takes me to a nation events page???
I think I must have hit post reply before it uploaded or something. 450 seems a lot to pay for the switch, but it is one way to get it.

The metal tab could be bent or something and it might be fixable. Worst case you could wire it to a manual switch and flip is when the top is down.

You may need to remove the convertible top assembly from the vehicle to work on it. My recollection is that actually makes it easier to work on. The assembly itself is attached by 2 bolts on each side, and the bottom stays in place because the hole is slotted so the top just lifts off. Mostly the work is unclipping hydraulics from the car body and it all lifts out as an assembly. You probably don't need to fully remove the top.

It's a bit awkward because of the hydraulics and might take 2 people. Up to you if you think it's easier, but that's usually how we worked on it at the supplier.
 
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